


Lunch with Ellen Kushner and Delia Sherman

by Oshun



Category: Swordspoint Series - Ellen Kushner
Genre: Interviews, Meta, non-fiction
Language: English
Status: Completed
Published: 2020-02-25
Updated: 2020-02-25
Packaged: 2021-02-28 06:28:20
Rating: Not Rated
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Chapters: 1
Words: 4,592
Publisher: archiveofourown.org
Story URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/22889227
Author URL: https://archiveofourown.org/users/Oshun/pseuds/Oshun
Summary: Every avid reader's dream is to meet one's favorite authors and discuss their books with them. First published on my LiveJournal in June of 2010. I've always wanted to share it with a wider audience. Someone ran across it there recently and I decided to do exactly that. So here it is!Dedicated with genuine affection to Just-Ann-Now.
Comments: 7
Kudos: 4





	Lunch with Ellen Kushner and Delia Sherman

Every avid reader's dream is to meet one's favorite authors and discuss their books with them. I received the opportunity to do exactly that with an unexpected, unsolicited gift of a lunch with Ellen Kushner from my friend [](https://just-ann-now.livejournal.com/profile)[**just_ann_now**](https://just-ann-now.livejournal.com/). Ann had placed the winning bid in a charity fundraiser for a lunch with Ellen Kushner. Since Ann does not live in the New York area she offered it to me. In the process of arranging the lunch date, I mentioned to EK some of the topics I might like to discuss, which included questions about _The Fall of the Kings_. She offered to arrange the lunch at a time when Delia Sherman, her life partner and the co-author with her of _The Fall of the Kings_ , might be able to come as well. I was doubly thrilled. Not only am I crazy about their collaboration which resulted in _The Fall of the Kings_ , but I also love Delia's other works which I have read.  
  
I arrived a little early at the restaurant where we were to meet and waited in front, just a few short blocks from the center of the neighborhood that is one of the inspirations for Riverside. It was a gorgeous New York City spring day--unseasonably warm and clear for April, with a spectacular blue sky. (I know it has taken forever for me to write this and I do apologize to everyone who has been waiting!) I spotted them immediately about a half-block away crossing the street. Ellen Kushner and Delia Sherman are both striking women who each look very much like their published photos and together make an attractively dissimilar couple. Delia is taller, presenting a longer more angular body image, with stylishly cut, short, very red hair. Ellen has a face of out of a renaissance painting framed by an unruly cloud of dark curly hair sprinkled with grey.  
  
Armed with questions from many of you in addition to my own, I worried I would not have enough time for all of them or that I might feel intimidated and awkward. I have a fair amount of experience in conducting interviews, but not with people whose work I am as enamored with as I am with theirs. They were generous with their time and graciously warm to me. I felt like I could ask them anything. Of course, looking back, I can now think of a hundred things I missed. Writing up the answers to my questions was difficult for me also for two major reasons. First, we were eating lunch and I did not think it was appropriate to ask to record the conversation and, secondly, my note-taking lapsed in the face of my fascination with the discussion. (Also, in the process of developing an ugly head cold, not only was I sniffling and wiping my nose, but I was mentally about as far from razor-sharp as I possibly could have been.)  
  
A while back I conducted an informal poll here on my LJ about the concept of spoilers. After reading your responses, I felt I had to attempt to arrange my notes on the books in the order in which most people read them, _Swordspoint_ first and _The Fall of the Kings_ last as opposed to in order in which we discussed the points. Delia had to leave for another appointment after a little more than hour, but Ellen, bless her, stayed for at least another hour and a half.  
  
**_Swordspoint_**  
To me, the novels of the _Swordspoint_ universe are unquestionably fantasy novels at their heart, although they have been called various other things, including mannerpunk or historical fantasy. EK herself is not particularly fond of seeing work limited by genre classifications. She would call the novels interstitial, I believe. (What is interstitial art? "It is art made in the interstices between genres and categories. It is art that flourishes in the borderlands between different disciplines, mediums, and cultures. It is art that crosses borders, made by artists who refuse to be constrained by category labels."—blurb on the Interstitial Arts Foundation web page. Check out the link here for [Interstitial Arts Foundation](http://www.interstitialarts.org/about/index.php) of which both EK and DS are founders and members of its Executive Board.) The world Ellen Kushner invented and Delia Sherman embellished resembles our own world in various aspects, but also contains elements of pure imagination and, eventually, in _The Fall of the Kings_ , explicit magic. One of the notable differences is that of the attitudes reflected relating to sexuality within the created society.  
  
Ellen is frequently asked about her inspiration for Riverside. I had wanted to avoid the obvious questions that have already been answered in available interviews or reviews, but I could not resist this one, as we were sitting and talking within spitting distance of Riverside Drive (which runs the length of the Upper West Side). Ellen described the experience of living on the Upper West Side of Manhattan during the late 1970s and 1980s, a period when it was a genuinely dangerous area. Muggings were commonplace. Drug dealers and criminals existed side-by-side with working-class families, students, writers, and artists. She noted also the influence of the loveable rogues of _Oliver_ or the hustlers and gamblers of Damon Runyon's tales of New York City. She admits that the gentrification of the UWS in the years since she wrote _Swordspoint_ has the benefit that one does not have to look around every time one steps out onto the street.  
  
I asked Ellen about the gender and sexual preference issues raised in the Riverside world. She responded, "You mean that everyone is bi?" making me smile by knocking the wind out of my feeble attempts at intellectualizing the question. "Because it is _my_ fantasy, _my_ world." She went to explain that in her opinion everyone can be placed along a spectrum, ranging from those with a distinct preference for the same sex to others with a stronger attraction to the opposite sex. In her books, few characters fall at one end or the other of the spectrum. She then tried to recall the characters who seem to be manifestly straight or not at all. She mentioned that Jessica was never really interested in boys. When she said that Michael Godwin is only interested in women. I reminded her that in _Swordspoint_ he is having an affair with both Bertram _and_ his wife. Justis Blake is not attracted to men. Marcus, after his early traumatic experiences with sex, limits himself to women. Fans have also noted that a least a couple of the principal villains are _not_ bisexual. In _Swordspoint_ it is clear that Lord Ferris has never been interested in men. "He never wanted to go to bed with men, although many people said the excitement and sense of mastery were greater. Ferris liked women, and intelligent ones." Meanwhile, in _The Fall of the Kings_ , Nicholas Galing's sexual indifference to women borders on repulsion. He barely tolerates looking at Ysaud's painting of naked women.  
  
A number of people wanted me to ask why EK thinks readers find Richard and Alec so appealing since they are so crazy and wicked. Ellen said that I as one of those readers would have to answer that question myself. I am not sure if I should answer that here since this article is supposed to be about information I gleaned from talking to EK and DS. But when have I ever turned down the opportunity to state an opinion? My briefest possible response would be that I was first hooked by just how flawed they were and then my attraction was sealed when, enticed by the story and the manner of its telling, I began to consider their possible virtues and the complexity and depth of their relationship to one another. I would love to hear from others what _they_ find most compelling about Richard and Alec.  
  
Of course, the bulk of my questions, as well as most of those given to me by friends, concerned Alec and Richard. Everyone seems to want to discover new insights into their characters or aspects of their life together that are not found in the books. Ellen described Alec of _Swordspoint_ to me as a sulky, angry nineteen-year-old who wants to make the world a better place, but is endlessly frustrated by his powerlessness. I was reminded of something that the Black Rose says to him in _The Privilege of the Sword_ , "You must have been a perfect horror. All arms and legs and rage and nameless lusts." (I love that line. Like Rose, I can picture the adolescent Alec, just a few years short of the one we meet in _Swordspoint_. What a bristly little monster he must have been.)  
  
One of Ann's questions concerned how Richard and Alec spend their time on Kyros. "Living _la dolce vita_ ," was Ellen's short answer. Further discussion revealed that she assumes it would have been easier for Alec to entertain himself. Books, of course. I suggested, based upon the details in Ellen's newest short story about Richard and Alec [The Man with the Knives](http://www.avramdavidson.org/themanwiththeknives.html), that Alec would be studying anatomy. Delia suggested that Richard would have to find something physical to do with himself. She floated the idea that he might enjoy learning a local technique of wrestling. But, Ellen was quick to add, he definitely would _not_ be giving anyone lessons in sword fighting. She also suggested that perhaps Richard might have raised bees.  
  
**Between _Swordspoint_ and _The Privilege of the Sword_**  
One question that fell in the period between _Swordspoint_ and _The Privilege of the Sword_ , was how long were Richard and Alec together between when Alec became the Duke Tremontaine and Richard went to stay at Highcomb and what their life might have been like during that period. Ellen says it was five or more years and that the first period was probably one of crazy hilarity. 'We have all of this money now! What should we do with it? Where should we go?' Alec would have spent time and energy trying to put together his own staff. Richard, of course, would have been busy with people who sought to test Alec and/or challenge him. There might have been a slight disagreement about Alec wanting to reconstruct the old house in Riverside. Richard would wonder why they needed it when they have the ducal residence on the Hill. We as readers of all the books are privileged to know that Alec has already developed a strong commitment to Riverside.  
  
**Food!**  
I like food, in real life and in books. Everyone adores the chocolate in EK's books. I told Ellen that her descriptions reminded me of the way the Aztecs drank it in pre-Colombian Mexico, hot, thick and dark, with or without milk, sometimes sweetened and often not. She said that was exactly how they drink it on the Hill (and that she didn’t think she’d known about the Aztec tradition when she wrote that). Ellen said that the only time she consulted with someone about food was in preparing the menu for the Duchess Tremontaine's dinner party on the barge in _Swordspoint_. She said that she still has the original list somewhere among her papers (smoked goose, red wine, hot almond soup, fish, with another wine, and "four more courses"). (She plans to post it soon in the RECIPES section of the _Swordspoint_ pages on [her website](http://www.sff.net/people/kushnerSherman/Kushner/recipies.html).) Students in most of the western world will recognize pizza as the tomato pies that the university types buy at the local taverns. Delia contributed the jellied eels and claret that Doctor Leonard Rugg served Basil St Cloud and their professor friends. I forgot to ask about Alec being "uncommonly fond of little iced cakes."  
  
**_The Privilege of the Sword_**  
Going over my notes it appears that I initiated far fewer questions about _Privilege_ than I did about the other two books. It is certainly not because I have read it fewer times or like it less, but simply that it seemed more straight forward to me in many ways. And other people did not give me as many questions relating to _Privilege_. It is significant in the overall development of the series because it provides the reader's only detailed look at how Alec functioned as the Duke Tremontaine. And it introduces the characters of Katherine and Marcus and sets up the birth of Jessica. One question which I picked up from spotting comments on the [](https://community.livejournal.com/-riverside/profile)[**_riverside**](https://community.livejournal.com/-riverside/) LJ community related to the explicit discussion of love between Richard and Alec in the memorable scene when Alec shows up at Highcomb unexpectedly. I mentioned readers expressing surprise at reading the words, "I love you." Ellen said that Alec is capable of saying anything when Richard is making love to him. Her remark recalled for me Alec's lovely babbling, which I have noted before in my endless rambling is in my opinion among the most erotic images in the books. I said that I believed it was Richard who says "I love you" to Alec. Ellen replied that it is hard to tell who is speaking in that scene. Naturally, I looked it up when I got home. It's clearly Richard.  
  
Ellen said that one of her fantasies is to see [Black Phoenix Alchemy Labs](http://www.blackphoenixalchemylab.com/) feature a fragrance inspired by Richard's description of Alec's scent:

> "Come to me. That's better. Yes. You smell of smoke—ash—you've been in a tavern. Your hair—ah!—you washed it at home. Chypre. Something else—citron—barber—fish on your hands, your fingertips—walnuts—bitter—" – _The Privilege of the Sword_.

My quickie internet research on perfumery reveals that Chypre is the name of a family of fragrances that are characterized by prevalent hesperidic notes, citrus-based scents such as bergamot, orange, lemon or neroli, usually with a floral middle note of rose and jasmine oil, and a mossy-woodsy-animalic base note derived from oakmoss and musks. The description of Alec's scent is also reminiscent for me of Basil's associations with Theron--wood smoke, oak leaves, and stags. Interestingly, similar fragrances are marketed both as sporty scents for women or as cologne for men. This intrigued me because I discovered that one of my own old favorite scents ( _Eau de Rochas_ ) falls into that same family. Most of you have already read Ann or me or both of us waxing eloquent over Ellen's descriptions of Alec's hands. Obviously, we will buy the scent if it is produced.  
  
**The Fall of the Kings**  
In writing _The Fall of the Kings_ together, Ellen concentrated on the extended Tremontaine family, while Delia focused on the academic setting and politics and the university characters. Ellen mentioned that Delia contributed a great deal to the development of Sophia in _The Fall of the Kings_ also. Sophia, an independent professional woman, bridges the family grouping and the university world. The two writers initially played with plot and characterization while taking car trips, even before they had decided to write a story together. (“The Fall of the Kings” was first published as a 10,000-word short story in _Bending the Landscape: Fantasy_ , ed. Nicola Griffith & Stephen Pagel, and was later expanded into a novel.)  
  
Ellen used the example of it being somewhat like a game of Barbies carried out over an extended period of time, playing with the characters and their world, creating scenarios and what-ifs and talking them out. When they started working on the book, they would each write on their own segments and then read and fiddle with the other's drafts. Ellen noted that at the time she was working long hours on her NPR radio program [Sound & Spirit](http://www.wgbh.org/pri/spirit) and would often come home to find a treat—several pages Delia had written in her absence.  
  
I mentioned that some readers had told me that they did not find Theron Campion particularly appealing, whereas I had liked him very much (actually, I adored him—there was a certain innocence about him that I found appealing and he reminded me a lot of Alec had he been raised under more favorable circumstances). Delia observed that Theron is rich, attractive, and charming, self-consciously so, remarking that these are often a combination of characteristics that many people do not find sympathetic. She said that she herself is suspicious of extremely good-looking people who are transparently aware of the fact. Ellen appeared to like Theron more (and why wouldn't she? he _is_ her character) making the point that Theron bears no one any ill will which is a redeeming quality. He is young and spoiled and has been catered to his entire life; the first time he has not been able to attain something he wanted was in his love affair with the painter Ysaud. And yet, despite all of his privilege throughout his life, he has never really fit anywhere. He is different from the rest of the nobles on the hill. His mother is a foreigner, his father was the notorious Mad Duke, and he has been raised in Riverside. At the university, he takes his studies far more seriously than the other students of the nobility tend to and thus isolates himself from those of his own class, while his birth, wealth and advantages cut him off from the general population.  
  
Ellen mentioned that although they love one another Theron and Katherine are like oil and water. They do not understand one another and every attempt at pacification on either part ends in frustration, more often than not with Katherine becoming angry and frustrated with Theron. This seems similar to me to Katherine's inability to understand Alec. She learned to care for him, but he drove her crazy.  
  
While readers are hopelessly besotted by Richard and Alec, Ellen mentioned that she and Delia have characters that they are attached to who do not receive nearly as much attention. She mentioned the student Justis Blake of _The Fall of the Kings_ as one. Justis is, in fact, modeled loosely upon someone they once knew, a smart and earnest working-class writing student at the prestigious Clarion workshop where they taught some years back. Ellen said that another she feels is generally overlooked is Marcus from _The Privilege of the Sword_. Marcus, however, is not without his fans. Take a look at the Facebook account created by a fan called, "We Appreciate Marcus!"  
  
I asked Ellen if she knows what happened to Theron after he leaves for Kyros. The good news is that she does know, in great detail. The bad news is that I shouldn't tell her readers. That would spoil the fun of reading about him in the future.  
  
When I asked Ellen what she finds the most difficult about writing? She replied, "Just sitting down and doing it." Polishing text is something she finds pleasurable, and refining narrative arcs and dramatic tension.  
  
When I asked about the inspiration for the university in _The Fall of the Kings_ , I noted that I thought first of Paris, of Abélard and medieval scholars. Ellen delightedly agreed. Delia said it was also modeled on other early modern universities of the continent like Padua, Amsterdam, or Prague. Speaking of Basil St Cloud of _The Fall of the Kings_ , she said that, unlike Abelard, he is not a whiner. St Cloud is oblivious to the political waves he creates beyond the university. I told her one of the things I loved about the university plot in _The Fall of the Kings_ was the ongoing debate over method, over the traditionalists and the nobility vs. the modernists. "Whatever they [St Cloud's supporters] thought of St Cloud personally, they all agreed that Truth was to be found in the examination of empirical data rather than in the writings of previous generations." Of course, nothing is ever completely straightforward in these books. The man who defends what I would consider to be a variation of the scientific method is the one who in the end finds himself most adrift in a sea of myth and magic. She noted that the debate among scholars over teaching or writing based upon accepted authorities or relying upon firsthand evidence has been around a long time, noting that there are Latin terms for it. (I presume she is referring to arguing _a posteriori_ , i.e., from concrete evidence and observation, original sources, versus _a priori_ , literally "from that which comes before.")  
  
One of the things I wanted to touch on with DS was the inspiration for the myths and legends bound up in the elements of magic in the storyline of _The Fall of the Kings_. Her response, which actually also enlightens the question of audience, was that, "We've all read the same books: _The Golden Bough_ , _The King Must Die_ . . ." That made me happy because that remark places me firmly in the center of their target audience. Obviously, the book(s) have an appeal beyond that circle as well. One of the best descriptions I have come across of the type of transformative myths tapped in _The Fall of the Kings_ may be found in Ari Berk's article, "Where the White Stag Runs, Boundary and Transformation in Deer Myths, Legends, and Songs."  
  


> In their truly wonder-filled, lusty, and post-modern novel, _The Fall of the Kings_ , Ellen Kushner and Delia Sherman deftly play with many now–familiar motifs of deer and stag lore: hunting and pursuit, the expression of desire, and the transformations that occur when animal nature is indulged and experienced.

Read the entire article [here](http://www.endicottstudio.typepad.com/articleslist/) in the Endicott Studio's _Journal of Mythic Arts_ , a treasure that is no longer being updated, but fortunately for all of us, still preserved online.  
  
Delia commented that in order to construct the tale of _The Fall of the Kings_ they were required to visualize both the religious beliefs of Ellen's secular world of the City and dramatically different north of the country. Both writers observed that the City and the Hill has a religion of polytheistic nature gods, which is not for the most part intrusive upon the day-to-life of the populace, and may be suggestive in its mythology of a Greco-Roman model. DS said that the belief system of the north is necessarily much more powerful. For one thing, it supports a theocracy. Its myths relate directly to power and governance—the relationship of the mad kings of old to their beloved wizards who guided and controlled them. The question of myth and the belief system led us into a discussion of the introduction of explicit magic into _The Fall of the Kings_.  
  
Delia commented that when one introduces magic into fiction, one must write it as though one believes it. She noted that unlike today, throughout most of history the question of whether or not magic existed was not raised. Magic simply was. Alchemy, for example, was considered a form of scientific experimentation. Other practices we consider superstitious continued well into the past century and even into our own times. In the sections of _The Fall of the Kings_ which include manifestations of magic, the question of whether the magic is real or not is left deliberately ambiguous. That is to say that the readers can decide for themselves if they are observing mass hysteria or if the events at the close of _The Fall of the Kings_ are intended to be interpreted literally.  
  
One extremely interesting bit of inside information is that they had a discussion about the outcome of _The Fall of the Kings_ , essentially whether they should end it as they did or whether Basil St Cloud might have retired to the countryside and lived out his life in isolation from the University. (This is an especially an interesting consideration in light of [](https://rm.livejournal.com/profile)[**rm**](https://rm.livejournal.com/) 's ongoing study of the reactions of fans to deaths of major fictional characters.) As fond as I am of St Cloud, I personally have trouble envisioning the alternate ending. It does not seem to me like it would have been a happier ending than their final choice. Delia agreed that death, for him, was less cruel.  
  
**"A Wild and a Wicked Youth"  
**Ellen Kushner’s short story, "A Wild and a Wicked Youth" (published in _Fantasy & Science Fiction_, April/May 2009), introduces _Swordspoint_ fans to a glimpse of Richard's childhood and youth and his mother. Recalling those details prompted me to ask why Richard's mother never taught him to read. Ellen noted that Richard, like most children, would have been resistant to learning. If he had any initial curiosity he might have rapidly become bored. Perhaps he was a little dyslexic. His mother was not a teacher and also obsessed with her own interests. I said, "But she loves him." Delia corrected, "Is fond of him." Ellen objected, stating she did love him and adding, "She found a way to get him a sword." In discussing Richard's parents further, Ellen stated that Richard's mother must have initially been strongly physically attracted to his father. But that beyond the initial chemistry the man not was interesting enough to hold her attention. He was sexy enough to run off with, but not deep enough for her to consider marrying and spending the rest of her life with him.  
  
Ellen opined that Richard's father had to have been engaged in something physical, that perhaps he was a dancing master. Richard had to have inherited his remarkable athletic capacity from somewhere. I told her that I had initially thought he might have been of a noble family. EK's answer that he definitely had not been a noble surprised me. Her characterization usually reaches me with such force that I rarely need to adjust my conception to meet any element of the unwritten back story in her head. I thought I might have picked up my conception that Richard's father was possibly of the nobility from something the Duchess Tremontaine says to Richard in _Swordspoint_. "What a noble you would make. It's a pity your father was . . . but no one knows who your father was, do they." That had served as an unintended red herring for me. Now that I re-read the passage, I can see that this passage in no way implies that Diane thinks Richard has a noble father; it was simply my own imagination running wild.  
  
**_The Tale of King Alexander the Stag_ by Delia Sherman**  
I asked about the conception of Delia's The _Tale of King Alexander the Stag_ ; whether the conception of the story comes before or after the creation of the storyline for _The Fall of the Kings_. Not an especially brilliant question, since I could have looked up its publication date. _King Alexander_ is essentially back-story written after _The Fall of the Kings_ but before it was published, when DS received a request to write a short story. Delia says that she is not particularly drawn to writing short stories, that she is more comfortable with longer forms and only writes short stories when she receives a commission for one. If you have not read it, it is a gorgeous story and available at <http://www.sff.net/people/kushnerSherman/Sherman/story_alexander_the_stag.htm>

* * * *

Missing from this write-up are the parts of our discussion which include storylines in the _Swordspoint_ universe which EK definitely intends to pursue in the future. There are at least two major stories which she hopes to continue, both of them concerning characters that excite me. I promised I would not spill those delicious details (off the record!). The fabulous news is that more of this world will be forthcoming.

**Author's Note:**

> My apologies for broken links (ugh! the ephemerality of the internet). I left them in because I am sure some of them might be accessible on the Wayback Machine.


End file.
